Karaoke Forums

what about all of those reports about new music is coming?

What, pray tell, have I spun or distorted?

As I have said repeatedly, we will release new music once we have licensing. I have an agreement with Universal ready to go, but there is nothing in their 100%-owned catalog that we want to make right now. I cannot make the licensing executives at SATV/EMI and Warner Chappell work faster. That is literally the only thing holding up new production at this point. I had a productive exchange with the licensing director at SATV/EMI today, and I expect them to move very soon, so we'll see how it goes.

Did they not address that point when they referenced Universal Studios’ 1925 silent film, The Phantom of the Opera?



Wouldn't that apply to karaoke performances as long as the Sound Choice mark isn't overtly used to promote the shows?

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KNOW THYSELF

Since you're an expert in this process, what do you think it would look like for us to win a lawsuit?

Are we talking about a dramatic trial where the defendant, under heavy cross-examination, breaks down on the witness stand and cries out, "OK, OK, I can't take it anymore. Yes, I did it!"?

Or is it something else?

Don't be coy. Explain to us exactly what "winning law suits like shooting fish in a barrel" would look like.

Again, if we're talking about an isolated single use of the mark in that manner, sure.

But we're not.

Do you think that displaying our marks on a screen 100 times over the course of a night might constitute "overtly us[ing it] to promote the shows"? That doing so might be of a somewhat different character than putting up a single logo at the beginning of a public-domain movie?

Shows what you know about hosting Jim in a typical 4 hour show you are not showing the Logo 100 times. If you are good you can get off around 15 to 16 songs an hour, and maybe squeeze in a dance number. During the course of an evening depending on how fast the rotation goes you should be doing somewhere around 45 to 60 karaoke performances, also depending on the length of the track.

Did you forget that it comes up at the beginning and the end, and sometimes in the middle?

When a host plays 90% SC (very common), 15 songs an hour, 4 hours, 2.3 logos per song (some have 4 or 5, even), that's 124 impressions.

There are many shows where our logo comes up more often than the KJ's, if he even has one.

So quick to beat up Jim, that you forgot how to do math?

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-Chris

I believe he's referring to the opening splash screen, any instrumental screen which often shows the logo and the end splash screen (if a kj allows it to play that far. 3 times possible per song x 60 songs max. However for any kj to be able to honestly say they've played 60 SC songs in a night probably only has SC tracks to begin with.

{edit}never mind, already answered.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Why not Chris seems like good old Jim is willing to beat up on hosts. I know one show where the SC logo won't even come up once. Jim's math takes for granted that only SC will be played all night nothing else. That is going to cut into the Logo time as well.

I do not.
I consider promotion of a show to occur prior to the show as a means to attract a crowd. Although it's true that promotion occurs during a show to maintain a crowd, the trademark displays that are embedded within the track do not constitute promotion of the show because:
1. they are on tracks chosen by the singers not the KJ
2. they are displayed as part of the track without the option of removal
3. promotion during a show is normally announcing when the next show will be
4. The trademark is not displayed outside of the track being played

Can you point me to any case law that disagrees with my assumptions?

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KNOW THYSELF

Just because a logo is displayed doesn't mean someone sees it. How can you prove it was seen? And if it was seen, who saw it? Was the person that saw the logo 'confused' when they saw it? How was the person confused? Did the host display this or any other logo with the intent to confuse or mislead the people that allegedly saw it? Because your 'spy' saw it being displayed doesn't mean anyone else did.

"Did you see this logo?"
Yes.
"Did you also see these other 10 logos?"
Yes.
"Were you confused or misled when you saw any of these logos?"
No.
"Do you think the person displaying these logos displayed them with the intent to confuse?"
No.
"Do you think the person displaying these logos was trying to sell you a good or service?"
No.

Case dismissed.

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DJ Don

Most patrons what is a Logo? Just make me sound like Elvis.

Does this kj work for Sound Choice, Party Tyme, Karaoke Version, SBI, Sunfly, Pop Hits Monthly, etc...I see the affiliate logo for each one throughout every night I come to sing...i'm sooo confused!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

grasping at straws

if you read what Harrington is writing, you'll quickly realize that a response is not worth a fart in his general direction.

I've been quietly reading this thread for quite some time, and this is my opinion (which means it's not legal advice... hire your own attorney if you need one. )

And I find it interesting that Harrington is up to his same old tricks – trying to throw as much excrement at the wall as he can and seeing how much of it will actually stick. His constant barrage of quoting you different passages from trademark law or copyright law, or a mixture of both, or anything else he can seem to get his hands on, is nothing more than a bit of misdirection. It's a three letter word: "Boo!"

Let's look at this logically, shall we?

First of all, he doesn't have any standing at all as far as copyright is concerned. They sold those, along with the entire catalog to Stingray Digital. They may have a few with some tracks they recorded after the sale to stingray, but that's a very small number.

Second, it looks like his trademark angle has burst into flames and is beginning to spiral out of sight. (This wasn't really a surprise was it?)

Third, by his own admission, he's now going to start using "service mark registrations" to sue venues. And notice I said "to sue venues" and not "to sue karaoke hosts." In other words: "Well, that angle failed, let's try a new angle. And if that angle doesn't work, we'll try to invent another one."

Fourth, although I'm sure many of you do not have much experience with the inside of the courtroom and what goes on if a trial were to actually take place, but I can tell you this much:

For many years, Sound Choice sold karaoke products to karaoke hosts to utilize in their own "karaoke entertainment services." As a matter of fact, I still have some of their propaganda which clearly states to purchase their products to help you with your own karaoke service business. Right down to organizing and selling products to hosts for national contests. I would find it to be a very tough sell – in any court in the land – to try to convince the judge that displaying that logo is SUDDENLY NOW some sort of "exclusive right" of Phoenix entertainment partners – and their "controlled licensees."

You see, this is the part that most people who signed their contracts never understood – they now work for Phoenix entertainment partners – because Harrington is just using them as tools in their "karaoke entertainment services" angle. Don't be mistaken at all, he's not out there to protect you and your business – he's out to make money from the licenses you signed with him. By suing the very venues you hope to work in..

Get it yet?

An example of what they're attempting to do it's pretty easy to illustrate in a hypothetical situation:

Let's imagine that I'm the person that manufactured the "Checker Marathon automobile" and I not only manufactured them, I sold thousands of them directly to taxi companies all over the United States. I marketed them for these taxi companies to use in their commercial taxiing business. The best, highest quality automobiles to use in your taxi business.
Now, years later, I shut down the factory and sold off the parts and rights to the cars but kept the name and now I'm going to turn around and sue those very customers for using automobiles that have the name "Checker" on the side because that is my service mark and they are now interfering with my fledgling taxi business who now competes with (instead of supplying) them. But I'll let them continue if they pay me a fee and sign an ongoing contract......

I don't care how much he quotes from legal code. I don't believe it's ever going to happen with anyone that stands up to them. That's why their modus operandi is simply to send letters to unknowing and easy-to-scare venues and use only attorneys that are willing to work on contingency (for free). They are nothing more than predators.

"Phoenix" is a pretty accurate name because every time they come up with a dozen paragraphs of code and law to support what they believe is their bulletproof legal argument(s), they crash and burn in the courts only to revive with a new and different legal argument that gets burned down again.... and now we're on to iteration number 3.

These trolls only make money when they can continue spreading fear that you will be involved in a lawsuit in federal court and the uncertainty that you will have enough money to successfully defend yourself and doubt that you have any other option other than writing them a big fat check.

This, my dear friends, is the "FUD" (fear, uncertainty and doubt) that he's been talking about for years and trying to place elsewhere. He is the purveyor of FUD in the worst way and quoting paragraph after paragraph of legalese while interpreting them only his way is a favorite tactic. And why not? It's been working just fine on KJ's and venues...

As long as they can sue venues that don't know who they are and how they operate, they'll stay in business. They are in the "smoke and mirrors lawsuit business" and their hoping to pull a fresh bunny out of a hat.. They are certainly not in the karaoke business.

Even if they did decide to sell new product... who would really buy it other than a handful of licensees? Would you buy it knowing that playing it could result in a service mark lawsuit?

Yeah, I didn't think so....

Phoenix reminds of Keith Richards....
(he doesn't think he's dead yet either.... but at least he still has talent.)

Now that's what I'm talkin' about.

As everyone knows, I do not use SC. I use KV, KN, CB (because I did register those), MM, MH, SBI, SF, ZM, AH, ASK, DK, SGB, among others!! NOBODY has ever asked me if I am associated with ANY of those companies!!

Now, my shows are populated by mixed crowds, but the bulk of those crowds are in their 20's. They want new music. Did you get that, Jim? I will say it again, THEY WANT NEW MUSIC!! SC doesn't HAVE any new music. Their music stops in 2009. It is now EIGHT years later!! Many of those SC only songs, have been released by other companies, and more come out, all the time. SC is becoming more and more irrelevant, by the day. They are grasping at straws, at this point.

I have converted SC people into KV people, because the quality is great, and they see that their favorite songs are still available, most sounding better than their SC counterparts.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Let's just face the facts PEP's legal arguments were feeble to begin with. Every excuse that Jim can come up with he has used, my dog ate the evidence, the judge didn't understand the law, the company that represented us dropped the ball, etc.etc.etc. The bottom line is these cases are just attempts from a non viable company to troll the civil court systems trying to get settlements, not from hosts who don't have any assets, but rather the venues who hire them. This puts every host at risk of their gig, because when PEP turns up the legal heat, the venues are just going to stop having karaoke period. Then everybody loses, and might as well pack it in.

#1 Question I never get: "Are you part of Sound Choice/PEP?"

Eventually PEP will run out of ways to sue and will either close it's doors or actually make product.

The only people PEP is lying to about when new product will come out is themselves (and those who signed up for PRIME or ADVANCED). Consider that several karaoke companies already make a lot of product, and companies like Karaoke Versions release them daily. I see no reason why other companies have no problem with releasing music, but PEP does.

My guess here is that PEP has a lot of FUD about it's product and services. Or paranoia that one bought copy will turn into 50 million copies overnight.

Believe it or not, not every KJ is a pirate, waiting to steal PEP tracks. The proof being that all of the current companies making product is more about concerned about getting back into the US market then closing it's doors. They know where the money is or else they wouldn't bother.

Make no mistake: other companies are getting the brand loyalty that Sound Choice USED to have. Many are starting to get a nice deep catalog with quality recordings. KJs coming up in the business can easily avoid all the hassles of PEP without buying one single track of SC or CB.

And PEPs huge image problem: All those people and businesses that PEP sued most likely won't care what PEP releases, nor would recommend a PEP product to anyone. That's gonna hurt sales.

So when/if the first bunch of PEP tracks come out, I expect sales will most likely be low. Six years is forever ago in today's business world. Sure, you'll have people from PRIME and ADVANCED pre-sales getting tracks, but they already gave you that money.

How much money you will actually make depends on what you offer to people who aren't in your pocket already. If it's anything like the ADVANCED offering, you simply won't find buyers who are interested.

I just want to ask when those low sales numbers happen, will it be the KJs fault because they didn't flock to you, or the pirates fault because they stole it?

My guess would be that it's PEP fault for being out of a game it used to have a lock on years ago.