Karaoke Forums

I can show it to you. I can even explain it to you. But I can't understand it for you.

Her statement suggests that all that's required is for a KJ to be 1:1, and everything is OK. That is definitely not true, and it's not what the letter says. We have been very firm on this: The KJ can play SC from original discs--no copies--or he can get a license from us. That license might cost nothing, or it might cost money--it depends on whether the KJ is 1:1 or not, and if not, how the KJ wants to pay.



You ought to know. You've been fighting hard to keep it trending in that direction.

There are LOTS of "available attorneys" but you just don't want to actually pay for one out of your pocket... Could it be because there's no guarantee that you'll prevail in every case and I'm sure that your contingency payment subtracts your filing fees as well. Currently in the Phoenix area, there are 7,654 active attorneys according to the state bar. If we assume that only 1% of them can do intellectual property cases that's 76 alone. So there are plenty that just don't want to work on your case for free up front. So if you're willing to go the cheapest route possible on attorneys, it would be a pretty good guess that you'd be spending the same for "investigations" as well.

I'll bet it's pretty magical how I can affect the rates in the Seattle/Tacoma, WA area all the way from Michigan all these years....

You said yourself that I live in an "economically depressed area" yet I still get more than 75% than Lonnie or the KJ's in his area? And doing that for well over 15 years and over half a decade without using the SC brand at all?

Wow! This must be a magical city! I guess I'm already on the road to the higher rates and profits you mentioned above... and my venues are still 100% free of your trolling suits. I guess rather than send you all that licensing money, they can just save a stamp and just hand it to me, right? After all, there's no ongoing contract to sign, no ongoing payments to make to you and best of all, no legal exposure, settlement costs or attorney fees.

Contrary to your belief (and despite your constant spewing to the contrary) it IS possible to make more money in this business based on your abilities... and NOT the brands of songs you carry.

Bet you didn't see that coming....

Yeah i'm not quite getting this either? They acquire a HELP license (or drop the brands completely), and continue to work with a $200 POS PA and work for $50 & bar tab. I remember disc operators that had all original discs that would still work for less than what they were putting out for new music. How is this going to be any different? Or help other kj's get better rates? Bars have already got a mind set of what they know they can pay and the sad thing is, it's not going to change. Say they are truly a pirate show and they do not use any SC or CB, that isn't going to affect the market and raise prices to the kj in the slightest and being they do not use the brands, you wouldn't even be able to send them a letter.

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pirates are not making venues close their doors to karaoke alltogether, you have single handedly done that yourself.


this has been happening since the 90's with disc copying and those were the prime times for karaoke


those venues are necessary for the divas that prefer to not wait for songs and in general bring the bar down with tear in my bear crying songs. look at those shows and you will see what i mean. these keep them away from our shows which most of us are lucky to get 3 rounds in a 5 hour show. redistribution just means you only get 1 song per night...not much fun. you are mistaken on this.

they can afford to pay more for dj nights that have lower turnout and lower income, they can afford to pay more for bands with lower turnout and and lower income, they CHOOSE not to pay that for karaoke, it is not as "real" as a dj or band and therefore worth less in their eyes. if a bar can pay $50 for pirate karaoke without fear of retribution, how are we all in business? karaoke is profitable for our business and venues we work at (the general we, not just me specifically) and not going to get the $400 a night the dj's get paid. you are mistaken on this as well.

the legit kj's have the money to buy music and are. Just ask karaoke.net, Karaoke-Version, SBI, etc. i know i am buying new music almost nightly as are many here. why? because i am legit. i pay for my music, fewer pirates will not make a legit begin buying music, we already are, just look on this board as hosts talk about the discs they are finding and buying while PEP was unable to sell 100 discs. you are blaming piracy for us buying from other manufacturers and not you? you are mistaken on this also.

the other companies are not doing this...they are also in business making and selling music while you are not. this whole thing appears to be "you are not buying from us so that is because of piracy so you are not buying period." if what you are saying is true, your alaska show with no competition (if it is still going since you do not advertise) should be pulling in $600+ per night. is it?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Your efforts do NOT APPEAR to be putting any Pirate KJs out of business. As I have stated before, show us the proof of this (not the written judgment from the settled case, but the actual proof that the Pirate KJ is no longer gainfully employed). And, all we (at least in this Forum) are seeing, is that the Pirate KJ is still remaining a Pirate KJ, because all you are accomplishing is the mere act of making them pay you a monthly/annual fee to use SC tracks that they never really acquired in a legal or legitimate manner, and you can't do a single thing to prevent them from using all of their other non 1:1 song tracks from all of the other manufacturers that are/were out there. Thus, they are still Pirate KJs, and still in business.

And once again, I will say that this is a very generalized statement, and it does NOT apply to all. I know of MANY legit KJs (1:1 PC operators and some who are still Disc-Based operators) who also charge exactly what you just quoted.... just to undercut the others. And undercutting has been around for as long as I can remember... LONG BEFORE Pirate KJs came into existence.

(Ahem)... "Our research indicates that the aforementioned karaoke shows ended on Sept. 9th at the 49th State Brewing Company in Denali park...."

But I just can't understand why any KJ wouldn't want to promote their shows......

Sure it does Cue, but you have to understand how PEP operates: Converting an SC pirate to a PEP Licensee IS "putting them out of business" as far as Harrington is concerned. He'll act like he's forced defendant's "out of the karaoke business" but take that statement with a boxcar of salt: Anyone who is willing to walk away really didn't need the money anyway so it's no big loss for them and after more than 6 years of suing, only a minuscule fraction (as "rare as a unicorn") have done that.

He can't do anything about any other brand(s) out there and he really doesn't give a rats a** about other KJ's in this business. He's not out to "grow the industry" at all, this is all about PEP, period. You don't count and neither does any other KJ. They are not in business to help you, they are in business to help themselves. He has regurgitated this same cud ad naseum.

For as much as he likes to "wave the anti-piracy flag" like PEP's trying to make the world better for you or other KJ's, or anyone else in the business, they're not. And if you think about it, why should they? They're not a supplier and they're obviously never going to be one so they're not about to start releasing a boatload of new music and make some incredible comeback from the dark side of the moon (where they are now.)

Simply false
The Singing Machine reported $48,900,000 in net sales this year. The population of karaoke singers grows larger every year.


Yet, you seek a license fee from those very people to display a trademark from their pirated tracks. So your success will not effect the oversupply of pirates.


The reason there are so many shows is directly related to the number of singers who want to sing. The smaller shows would not exist if there wasn't a demand for them.


Or when word spreads that karaoke hosts are toxic for bars, the small ones just go the safe route with jukebox karaoke and send their undercutting HELP licensees to compete head to head with legit hosts, driving the reasonable price down even further.


The legit hosts are already buying their music and being legit (that's what legit hosts do) legitimately. So the only way this statement makes sense would be if what you mean is; more money in the hands of legit hosts means more ability to pay higher prices for music than we already pay now which equates to less of the more money we get to keep to maintain an activity in which we already engage.


Obviously


I'm pretty sure the very people who stand to gain the most from your efforts are sitting in your offices.

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KNOW THYSELF

Thank you Big Jer !

[quote="c. staley"]kameragurl, What city is your son in law in? San Antonio?[/q

[quote="c. staley"]kameragurl, What city is your son in law in? San Antonio?[/quote]


Is SC in SA?

Our last show of the season in Denali was on 9/18, so I guess your research isn't very good.

You may not be aware of this--I have no idea how much you know about Alaska--but the tourist season pretty much ends in September, and in many places, venues (like the two we were servicing in Denali) close down until April. Our equipment is being repositioned to the lower 48 at the moment, and we'll have new shows within the next month, after we get our people trained up.

Sound Choice Entertainment's operations center is in San Antonio.

We do advertise, but our advertising is targeted to people who might actually attend the show. Advertising a karaoke show in Alaska to people in Arizona or Michigan is worse than useless. As noted above, the Denali season has ended, so we're moving our equipment to other locations for the winter. All indications are that we will be back next April-May.

As to the other part, your math/reasoning is faulty. Our shows in Alaska are profitable for the client and for us, but they are still subject to the constraints of being in Alaska. Denali is a popular park for Alaska, but it only attracts 400,000 visitors a year. Compare that to Yosemite, which attracts about 4 million, or Great Smoky, which attracts 10 million.

Look, I don't expect everyone to buy in on our reasoning. We all have different perspectives. One hallmark of being an industry disruptor is that the established people say that what you're doing won't work. That's fine, because we don't need your approval. We're doing this whether you approve or disapprove. Your feedback is welcome, and we will always consider it.

The Singing Machine is almost exclusively a home product.

Party Tyme's sales are almost exclusively to the home market, via brick-and-mortar retail.

KSF, Party Tyme's content partner, is a foreign entity with access to markets where licensing is a simple transaction, not a protracted negotiation.

Recisio, which owns Karaoke-Version and KaraFun, is a foreign entity that managed, at least in some cases, to get the local affiliates of U.S. publishers to write licenses that cover the U.S., contrary to those publishers' stated policies about foreign licensing covering the U.S.

Who else is left? Digitrax, which appears to be struggling because of licensing difficulties. Pocket Songs, sold off to Party Tyme. Stellar Records, out of production if not out of business entirely.

It's remarkable to me that anyone could look at this situation, and see 30,000 U.S. operators, most of whom have virtually everything ever made for karaoke without paying anything for it, and not make the connection between the two.



Yesterday, I had a conversation with a guy whose venues got a letter from me a couple of weeks ago. He says, "Hey, I want to get legal, and I'm gonna get legal, but now I've got to have a conversation with my bars about raising prices, and by Monday I may be out of business." So I asked him what he's getting, and he says he's getting about $100 a show, with the highest one being about $125.

That's for 5-6 hours of work, and from that he has to buy and maintain equipment, buy gas, maintain his vehicle, and pay his living expenses. He can't do any promotion, because he can't afford it (and, because he's a pirate, he's maybe better off not promoting his shows). Meanwhile, during that time, the bar is getting between $1200 and $2000 in sales. Now, I've been to his show. He's a good KJ. His equipment is decent, and he knows how to set it up so that it sounds good.

So I asked him, "I figure that in order to break even on the license I'll sell you, you need to go up by about $8 a show. Why do you think they'll let you go to save $8 a show?"

And he says, "Because the next guy is willing to do it for less."

The only reason that guy can do it for less is because he's a pirate. And I'll go bust him and bust the venue, and for the amount of money they are going to pay me to save $8 would cover that $8 a show, once a week, for the next 36 years.

If the margins are that tight, they don't need to have karaoke.

If they can't afford to pay this guy enough for him to earn a living, and promote, and have licensed music, they have no business having karaoke. With proper promotion and less competition for singers, the bar that's doing $1200 to $2000 per night could run that figure to $2000 to $3000, and $200 to $450 per night for the KJ would be reasonable, figuring 10-15% of gross sales for the entertainment. (I recognize that there are more factors in this, but I'm not trying to write a book.)

I'm not just talking about KJs who are legal now, who buy their music now. I'm talking about the KJs who would buy their music if they could afford it.

While I agree about not advertising in a different state, I would figure you would have a general "where we are" or other form of press release on your PEP.rocks web site. It costs nothing other then to keep the locations updated, and would let both consumers and KJs see what you are doing when it comes to shows. If your talking a big venue (like a festival) you should have something about it, some pics, etc before and after the event. It might draw interest in your PRIME membership if KJs see 15-20 listings in or around their area or state.

Thinking that, just because one cuts out competition by catching and suing KJs and Venues will cause an increase in what a Venue makes or a KJ charges by reducing/eliminating "unfair" competition is simply a FLAWED conclusion to draw.

It was stated that less places means an increase in patronage which results in more income to the Venue who may, in turn, raise the KJs pay. This is, simply FLAWED thinking as well.

First of all, Karaoke Venues will have DIMINISHING returns if karaoke singers, all of the sudden, start flooding the bar.

In a 4-hour show, as general rule of thumb, Singers are elated if they get 3 songs, somewhat pleased if they get 2 songs, and aren't coming back if they only get ONE song. So there goes your, "going to get more Singers due to less competition" argument.

Then, of course there are those Singers who take their singing seriously and only order WATER or a FRENCH FRY thinking they are Gods gift to the Show. Yeah, I want all these NO LOADS at my show to REDUCE income to the Venue and cause the Waitstaff untold GRIEF as these people run them to death and VERY RARELY TIP.

So, let's break it down. It has been said that there are 3 components to success. For Bars that would be 1) The Venue (Ambiance, Location, Food/Drinks) 2) The SERVICE (Johnny On The Spot, Cordial, etc.) 3) The ENTERTAINMENT (KJ, Sound, Selection).

Pick any TWO and you will be successful.

So, NOW, the wait has become LONGER due to FEWER places to SING (Singers are pissed-off with the UNGODLY WAIT). The Venue is FLOODED with Free-Loaders (Venue making less MONEY as people leave due to the UNGODLY WAIT leaving the people who, as YOU SAY, have not INVESTED ANY MONEY and, THEREFORE, are willing to stay ALL FREAKIN' night because they have No OUT-OF-POCKET EXPENSE) and irritating the WAITSTAFF due to running them ragged with NO or VERY LITTLE TIP.

Hum, looks like a WINNING COMBINATION to me. Pissed VENUE and WAITSTAFF. Oh, wait a minute...that's TWO out of the THREE, but in the WRONG DIRECTION.

But, man oh man, I got one hellacious KARAOKE SHOW goin' for me.

Just how long do you think I would last in a VENUE under these circumstances? That's Rhetorical.

As far as I'm concerned, you need to leave the Business of Karaoke to Professionals.

You seem to have a very low opinion of your patrons. Perhaps that's deserved, perhaps not.

That being said, maybe your points are valid, maybe not. I guess we'll have to see.

Jim, Harrington,

Your reasoning and outcome for fewer venues = more $ is total horse poop. And you know it. Good competition builds sales. And that is a fact.

Years ago, the county I live had 17,000 or so residents (mostly non drinkers) and had 8 bars, 6 of which were very busy. Our drinker to non drinker ratio is about 1 drinker to 8 non drinkers (or bar-goes if you wish). Meaning that there were approximately 2125 drinkers/bar goers in the county. Divide that among the 8 bars (or even just the 6), you get about 354 potential patrons per bar. Now if only 25% of those goes out on a semi regular basis to have a good time per week or even bi-weekly,,, you get about 88 patrons per bar. Not too shabby for very small bars in my opinion. Over the years all but one of those bars shut down for various reasons; poor management, deaths of owners, selling out for new busness',,etc.

Move forward to modern days. OK, now we have almost 30 thousand residents and the only bar standing was the busiest of the original 8. We have 4 larger towns in the county and the county is about 53 miles from north to south in area. We still have about the same drinker/non drinker ration (1:8) as was years ago.

Mr. Harrington, by using your concept, that one remaining bar should be slammed,,,right??? OH, how WRONG you would be!! It's deader than ever. I stopped hosting there last year because it became evident that the bar is floundering. The owner is a very well loved lady who is the right person to run the place and had a good handle of what is going to do the best as far as drawing patrons.

The fact is, for various reasons all over the nation, bar business' are struggling to expand or even just to compete. With rising operational fees, taxes and continuing pressure from law enforcement. Just because there are fewer bars does NOT mean more revenue, that concept is totally false, and you know it. Don't try to pull the wool over the eyes of people on this forum, because they see you for exactly who you are,,, a hired attorney for a defunct manufacturer. A failed business that has resorted to nothing short of what people see as "extortion". In the eyes of many, you are viewed as no better than an 'ambulance chaser'. Of course they can't blame a company for trying to protect what is left of their assets, but seriously, the owners would be better off going out and finding a real job, instead of holding onto something that is dead.

Karaoke IS dying slowly but surely. Piracy is only one of the reasons that it is, not because there are too many hosts out there, but because of the demands of the people. Times are a'changing, and the sooner you, PEP, and yes, even the bars, accept that fact, and adapt to the 21st century, the sooner it can become profitable again. Will karaoke ever totally die? Probably not, as long as there is music and the need for people to be have the spotlight, there will be karaoke. But the way that is is happening is most definitely changing.