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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:25 am 
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I have a pretty simple question for you Lone Ranger.

Would you continue to support and eat at a restaurant that always served lousy food, dirty and grungy dining room, had horrid service and was so inconsistent on their menu? Even tho the family that owned it were poor and had 9 children all in bare feet? Or would you do something else to help the family? Help them by maybe showing them that their business practices were what was making this family poor? Think about it


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:30 am 
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mrscott wrote:
I have a pretty simple question for you Lone Ranger.

Would you continue to support and eat at a restaurant that always served lousy food, dirty and grungy dining room, had horrid service and was so inconsistent on their menu? Even tho the family that owned it were poor and had 9 children all in bare feet? Or would you do something else to help the family? Help them by maybe showing them that their business practices were what was making this family poor? Think about it


That couldn't happen in California, the local board of health would close them down. You can't squeeze blood out of a rock, it will take sometime before this country is back on the road to recovery. Things might not return to normal until late next year, we need to deal with that reality.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:32 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
mrscott wrote:

Think about it rationally and not letting your ego make choices for you. Take a step back and see what you would do if the roles were reversed.



I thought we were having an exchange of ideas, in such exchanges rationality has little to do with it. Go ahead and take a step back, the greater good is more important than the benefit of a few. Like has been pointed out what me and Danny do is having no effect on your local community. Unless there is someone local who feels the same way?


I can almost certainly guarantee that there is someone in your area that will disagree with what you are doing. And they would probably be angry with you too for taking food out of their children's mouths. Just saying.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:35 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
mrscott wrote:
I have a pretty simple question for you Lone Ranger.

Would you continue to support and eat at a restaurant that always served lousy food, dirty and grungy dining room, had horrid service and was so inconsistent on their menu? Even tho the family that owned it were poor and had 9 children all in bare feet? Or would you do something else to help the family? Help them by maybe showing them that their business practices were what was making this family poor? Think about it


That couldn't happen in California, the local board of health would close them down. You can't squeeze blood out of a rock, it will take sometime before this country is back on the road to recovery. Things might not return to normal until late next year, we need to deal with that reality.


Sorry to disagree with you Lone Ranger,,, little cafe's and restaurants slip through the cracks all the time. They might "barely" meet the requirements for being open, but they are open. It happens frequently,,,, maybe not the 9 bare footed children part, but the lousy food and service is the norm usually.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:44 am 
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mrscott wrote:

Sorry to disagree with you Lone Ranger,,, little cafe's and restaurants slip through the cracks all the time. They might "barely" meet the requirements for being open, but they are open. It happens frequently,,,, maybe not the 9 bare footed children part, but the lousy food and service is the norm usually.


You keep talking about personal freedom, and making good decisions a matter of personal choice. To begin with in my county each restaurant has to display it's public health window card. This card rates the place of business as to it's high standards. I never eat anywhere outside my home unless it is rated A. You don't have that in Utah? It is your personal responsibility to go where it is safe to eat.


Last edited by The Lone Ranger on Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:50 am 
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mrscott wrote:

I can almost certainly guarantee that there is someone in your area that will disagree with what you are doing. And they would probably be angry with you too for taking food out of their children's mouths. Just saying.



First of all I'm not taking any gigs that now have a host working them, so I'm not pushing anyone out. I'm starting new play dates, increasing the karaoke patron base for everyone.

Second some hosts have told me they can no longer do gigs, they need to get real jobs, so they can feed their kids.

Third the whole goal is to improve karaoke overall isn't it? For the Patrons, for the Hosts, for the venues. The pandemic has dealt this industry a gut punch it might not recover from totally. Anything that maintains market share for the whole industry can't be all bad!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:52 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
mrscott wrote:

Sorry to disagree with you Lone Ranger,,, little cafe's and restaurants slip through the cracks all the time. They might "barely" meet the requirements for being open, but they are open. It happens frequently,,,, maybe not the 9 bare footed children part, but the lousy food and service is the norm usually.


You keep talking about personal freedom, and making good decisions a matter of personal choice. To begin with in my county each restaurant has to display it's public heath window card. This card rates the place of business as to it's high standards. I never eat anywhere outside my home unless it is rated A. You don't have that in Utah? It is your personal responsibility to go where it is safe to eat.


Nope, we don't have anything like that here,,,, eat it, like it, and return,,,,or eat it, hate, throw up, never return.

You are missing the point tho, like usual. Point is, if you want to help someone or a business that is struggling, the best way is to be a patron and buy something. Especially if it's some place that you like and want to see succeed. If this place you like is smart enough to improve business practices by listening to the patrons and what they want, then it's up to them to make the changes.

But you feel the need to desire to help by giving them free entertainment....hey, that's great, that is your choice. But both you and Alan have already said it,,, choices have consequences. And you choosing to be used isn't doing anyone or any place any good.. That is how I see it. If you want to give them a free show every once in a while for a special event, that is an entirely different story. But not for the day to day business needs. They are NOT your problem, nor is it you business to meddling in their bad choices, it will only do harm for someone, somewhere.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:56 am 
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Who knows I might be using them, I might be too old, can't hear well enough, resting on my past glories? Only time will tell. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:57 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
mrscott wrote:

I can almost certainly guarantee that there is someone in your area that will disagree with what you are doing. And they would probably be angry with you too for taking food out of their children's mouths. Just saying.



First of all I'm not taking any gigs that now have a host working them, so I'm not pushing anyone out. I'm starting new play dates, increasing the karaoke patron base for everyone.

Second some hosts have told me they can no longer do gigs, they need to get real jobs, so they can feed their kids.

Third the whole goal is to improve karaoke overall isn't it? For the Patrons, for the Hosts, for the venues. The pandemic has dealt this industry a gut punch it might not recover from totally. Anything that maintains market share for the whole industry can't be all bad!


That's all well and good.... How about this one then.. After you have built a show up to the point where it is now profitable for the venue, then how about you doing some good and turn it over to someone who runs and operates a professional karaoke business. Then you would be putting money into the bars pockets, and into an extra pocket of the host.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:58 am 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
Who knows I might be using them, I might be too old, can't hear well enough, resting on my past glories? Only time will tell. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Your ego is really pretty big my friend! :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:05 pm 
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mrscott wrote:

That's all well and good.... How about this one then.. After you have built a show up to the point where it is now profitable for the venue, then how about you doing some good and turn it over to someone who runs and operates a professional karaoke business. Then you would be putting money into the bars pockets, and into an extra pocket of the host.


Like I explained before for tax reasons I cannot collect money for my services, they would have to be declared. Future profitability would depend on several factors, including the current Pandemic. It would not be up to me who it hired and fired, that is done all by executive committee, I have little to say. Oh by the way the Lodge is more than a simple bar. A simple bar does not give back to the community, they generally take.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:07 pm 
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mrscott wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
Who knows I might be using them, I might be too old, can't hear well enough, resting on my past glories? Only time will tell. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Your ego is really pretty big my friend! :wink:


Well better to be a has been, than a never was! I was trying to be humble it didn't work did it?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:18 pm 
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LR, what you propose to do, host karaoke for free, is very degrading to those karaoke hosts who take their business seriously and are trying to make an honest living. Can't you see that?

Can you also see how the lodge was trying to take advantage of you by asking you to mentor or train this worthless host that they have now? Don't you find that very insulting to you? I do.

This lodge, in my opinion is pathetic. They made their bed, now let them lie in it. It has nothing to do with you trying to help. Obviously, they don't want help. They just want freebies. And you are a fool if you buy into it. Open your eyes and see what's going on.

If you feel the need to give, then like mrscott said, donate directly to the Salvation Army, Red Cross, etc. or volunteer your services at a soup kitchen and let the lodge handle their own problems. You are not Mr. Fix it. You are only making it worse for the rest of us.

Now, I have to laugh... you say you care about the people of the community but what about us? We're a part of the community, too. As someone who is in this field, you of all people should know how hard it is to get a job at a decent wage. First we have to compete with the pirates, who have brought the going rate way down, and now we have to compete with people like you and Danny who agree to work for free. How's that caring about your fellow KJ? While many of us may have or had a day job... for some, they rely on the supplemental income that karaoke brings in order to get buy.

Not everyone is in as good of a financial shape as you are. But your actions are not helping. You're giving your fellow KJ the shaft. And you are making things worse for all KJ's that you should be caring about.

As mrscott said, you may be a nice person but in this case, I have no respect for you because your decision to work for free is detrimental to the rest of us trying hard to get and maintain work at a reasonable wage. Free is not reasonable.

If your lodge folds, it will be because of their bad decisions... not because you didn't help them. So, if you do want to help someone, start with your fellow KJ. You of all people should know how challenging and difficult running a karaoke business can be. Don't make it worse than it already is. By working for free, you're doing just that.

If your lodge fails, it's because of their stupidity. So, wake up and smell the coffee.

Now, here's a suggestion: Instead of doing a stupid thing like hosting at a commercial establishment for free, which only hurts KJ's in business to make money.... just stay home and have karaoke parties. Invite your friends and family. Serve food and drinks. Everyone will be happy. And it's free! But stay out of the public venues. There's been enough damage caused to this industry already, we certainly don't need anymore.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:25 pm 
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I do all of the things listed, and even check on neighbors during the pandemic, to make sure they are ok. The big question is if this industry is so tough, then why try and do a show at all? If it is such a problem trying to get gigs, do a proper job with good equipment, legal content etc.etc.etc., with little reward, why make the effort?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:43 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
I do all of the things listed, and even check on neighbors during the pandemic, to make sure they are ok. The big question is if this industry is so tough, then why try and do a show at all? If it is such a problem trying to get gigs, do a proper job with good equipment, legal content etc.etc.etc., with little reward, why make the effort?

Because some of us actually enjoy what we do. We put a lot of time, effort, and money into it and deserve to be adequately compensated for it. A bar will hire us to bring in customers and make them money. In return, we get paid for doing so. That's how it works.

Keep in mind that like any business, there will always be business expenses. Cost of new music, printing books, replacing equipment, microphones, etc. We have to pay for that. Factor in gas to get to and from the job and wear and tear on your car, there are a lot of expenses. Again, you of all people should understand that. So, is it too much to expect a decent wage of at least $150 for the night?

It gets harder to convince a bar owner for that amount when they know that some people are doing it for very little money, or for free. And you and Danny are not helping the situation. But I enjoy what I do. I have a good reputation with customers and bars. I have always brought in people and made the venue.

I can only hope you think this through as to you working for free. It is not in the best interest of your fellow KJ and the industry as a whole which has already declined. Don't help it decline even further.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:11 pm 
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Alan B wrote:
Because some of us actually enjoy what we do. We put a lot of time, effort, and money into it and deserve to be adequately compensated for it. A bar will hire us to bring in customers and make them money. In return, we get paid for doing so. That's how it works.

Keep in mind that like any business, there will always be business expenses. Cost of new music, printing books, replacing equipment, microphones, etc. We have to pay for that. Factor in gas to get to and from the job and wear and tear on your car, there are a lot of expenses. Again, you of all people should understand that. So, is it too much to expect a decent wage of at least $150 for the night?

It gets harder to convince a bar owner for that amount when they know that some people are doing it for very little money, or for free. And you and Danny are not helping the situation. But I enjoy what I do. I have a good reputation with customers and bars. I have always brought in people and made the venue.

I can only hope you think this through as to you working for free. It is not in the best interest of your fellow KJ and the industry as a whole which has already declined. Don't help it decline even further.



Did you ever consider Alan that maybe the days of the KJ running karaoke as a sole means of support is over and gone? That advances in Technology make it possible for anyone to get into the game, with a moderate investment. Just like once there were buffalo as far as the eye could see, the great herds were killed off in the space of less than 20 years. That hosts are maybe the last of the karaoke buffalo hunters. Once the BB's are gone which make up most of the crowds then what?

Like I said different people work for different reasons, sometimes it is not gold alone that attracts them to their particular job. If you really enjoyed what you did, would what you make matter, that much? We are kinda of blurring the lines here, if you were really a hard core businessman like you claim, you would be looking for another business, more profitable.

P.S. Also consider the arguments you are making are the one's that bands have used against disco, and karaoke. That bands used to be the big thing, then disco for awhile pushed them to the sidelines. Those bands had as many as 5 members, each being paid. Karaoke comes along and puts some bands out of business, did the hosts take away their jobs, because they were cheaper? You have many groups competing for the same entertainment pie.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:27 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
Alan B wrote:
Because some of us actually enjoy what we do. We put a lot of time, effort, and money into it and deserve to be adequately compensated for it. A bar will hire us to bring in customers and make them money. In return, we get paid for doing so. That's how it works.

Keep in mind that like any business, there will always be business expenses. Cost of new music, printing books, replacing equipment, microphones, etc. We have to pay for that. Factor in gas to get to and from the job and wear and tear on your car, there are a lot of expenses. Again, you of all people should understand that. So, is it too much to expect a decent wage of at least $150 for the night?

It gets harder to convince a bar owner for that amount when they know that some people are doing it for very little money, or for free. And you and Danny are not helping the situation. But I enjoy what I do. I have a good reputation with customers and bars. I have always brought in people and made the venue.

I can only hope you think this through as to you working for free. It is not in the best interest of your fellow KJ and the industry as a whole which has already declined. Don't help it decline even further.



Did you ever consider Alan that maybe the days of the KJ running karaoke as a sole means of support is over and gone? That advances in Technology make it possible for anyone to get into the game, with a moderate investment. Just like once there were buffalo as far as the eye could see, the great herds were killed off in the space of less than 20 years. That hosts are maybe the last of the karaoke buffalo hunters. Once the BB's are gone which make up most of the crowds then what?

Like I said different people work for different reasons, sometimes it is not gold alone that attracts them to their particular job. If you really enjoyed what you did, would what you make matter, that much? We are kinda of blurring the lines here, if you were really a hard core businessman like you claim, you would be looking for another business, more profitable.


Lone Ranger, if what you are saying is true, then you would be purposely adding to the demise of the industry. I think that would not be a Christian thing to be doing. You don't believe for a minute that the end of karaoke as we know is at hand do you? I would like to see others on here from all around the country chime in and add how the industry is doing in their areas. Sadly tho, I don't think many will be adding any input here.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:11 pm 
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The Lone Ranger wrote:
Did you ever consider Alan that maybe the days of the KJ running karaoke as a sole means of support is over and gone?

Not entirely. It all depends on your situation.
The Lone Ranger wrote:
That advances in Technology make it possible for anyone to get into the game, with a moderate investment.

Technology is a good thing, however in this case, it's been used by many people to get into this business illegally. They no longer have to pay for their music, they steal it. Of course if you have any Christian values at all, you would be doing the right thing by purchasing your music and running a legitimate business.
The Lone Ranger wrote:
Like I said different people work for different reasons, sometimes it is not gold alone that attracts them to their particular job. If you really enjoyed what you did, would what you make matter, that much?

This is a really ridiculous question. Yes, it's always good to have a job that you like... but just because you like what you do, doesn't mean that the pay shouldn't matter. Or that you should settle for less money. A lot of people get into their chosen profession because of the money that can be made from it. So, I'm willing to bet that 99.99% of the people who love their job also love the pay that goes along with it. So YES, it matters.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:21 pm 
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mrscott wrote:

Lone Ranger, if what you are saying is true, then you would be purposely adding to the demise of the industry. I think that would not be a Christian thing to be doing. You don't believe for a minute that the end of karaoke as we know is at hand do you? I would like to see others on here from all around the country chime in and add how the industry is doing in their areas. Sadly tho, I don't think many will be adding any input here.



I would have to be a real egomaniac to think that what I am doing would in anyway add to the demise of the industry. The industry was already in state of decline before the pandemic came on the horizon. The pandemic pushed marginal venues out of business, and forced others to curtail their entertainment. That is just a cold hard fact. Just like Big Bands, bands, trio's, disco etc. had their time, so do I think it is true for karaoke, which has had a pretty long run. You keep talking about waking up and smelling the coffee, now is a good time to reflect upon the industry and what role each of us play in it. I'm not taking any paying gig from any host, I am expanding the patron base for all hosts. What you see as an direct attack against your interests might in the long run be the only way forward. Only time will tell.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:31 pm 
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Alan B wrote:
This is a really ridiculous question. Yes, it's always good to have a job that you like... but just because you like what you do, doesn't mean that the pay shouldn't matter. Or that you should settle for less money. A lot of people get into their chosen profession because of the money that can be made from it. So, I'm willing to bet that 99.99% of the people who love their job also love the pay that goes along with it. So YES, it matters.



How is it a ridiculous question? If you like doing something then the pay might not matter, you have answered the question, the pay matters at least to you. So even though you love hosting, money does matter, since there is no longer the type of money to be made from hosting, then it would seem just like buffalo hunters, Big Band members, band members, etc. etc. etc. you need to find a new line of work.


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